Curse

carnivore · Jan 22, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

If you're a smart arena monk, you're playing boon prot and you have Contemplation of Purity, which removes Dazed just as well as the various nasty hexes you can get and it isn't a spell so they can't interrupt it.

I don't think Temple Strike needs to be nerfed; I get screwed up by a Mesmer running Migraine and an interrupt or two at least as badly as this skill and the hexes are harder to prevent.

well i do sometimes play the a heal monk over a boon prot just because i don't have ot deal with boon sapping energy.

CoP is overated. its an energy hog and is still a situational skill. i prefer setting up Holy Veil before the fight(and i can remove hexes on the team) but i know your talkin about CoP as a condition remover and in that respect its even more situational.

and i dont have problems with migraine mesmers because i can see it comin. Temple Strike has a unrivaled surprise factor.

its fine if it doesnt get nerfed i guess but if it doesnt its gunna take over CA/TA easily

Phades · Jan 23, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Temple Strike

It's an assassin elite skill that after following a single strike (a lead attack) interrupts, DAZES, and blinds an opponent for a set time. It only costs ten energy, and has only a twelve second recharge.

Unfortunatly it is the only really good skill that they have. It also only interupts spells btw, not everything. To take it a step further, you have to mix your strikes in order to pair it up with another 12s skill in order to cycle it effectivly. It does no bonus damage and the condition duration is rather short. Using temple strike makes it difficult for the assasin to also have a snare. The most convient snare while using this skill happened to be found within the deadly strikes skill tree, which is also follows a lead attack. This makes timing rather complicated to say the least. The rest of the snares are dependant on hitting with a melee attack while the target is hexed, hexing the target, or using caltrops spell which gets kinda energy hungry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

What the HELL is this? This is the skill I keep coming to. If I get killed by an assassin it's always because of this skill, no others. I don't give a damn if they hit me with an entire 4 line combo, I can take the damage, I can withstand the onslaught of normal attacks with the proper skillset, but this skill seems overpowered to me. Mainly because of the dazed condition it so easily spreads around.

Well gee we should just get on the nerf wagon and do eviserate next. By comparison its a lead attack and hits tons harder. You dont need blind/dazed if the target is dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Think about it---rangers and warriors can daze as well, rangers have concussion shot and warriors have skull crack. However, BOTH of these either have very high adrenaline or energy cost. For rangers it's 25 energy, for warriors it's 9 adrenaline. And BOTH skills require you to interrupt an enemy skill with it. This evens it out, being that dazed is one of the most powerful conditions out there, if not the most powerful (in my opinion).

And the boon/cop users just laugh as it gets wiped away as fast as it arrives. It is really hard for an assasin to kill anything in a short period of time compared to other damage spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

So while rangers and warriors have to interrupt a spell and take up a shitload of adrenaline or energy, assassins get to spout it off whenever the hell they want for only ten energy, and only 12 seconds later they get to use it again.

You mean ranger primaries with the assassin secondary. Primary assasins can not just spam this skill. Also, if you also stero type builds, it will be on a 15s reuse not 12. There is not much sense in having a interupt skill follow a 6s daze, nor does it make alot of sense to not use the disrupting strike in a build like that. Both lead and off have to hit as well. Assasins are very easy to disrupt compared to wars and rangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

They don't have to time it---they don't have to interrupt a spell, they only have to use minimal energy and they get a short recharge time on it. If they decide to keep it they should tweak it to have a longer recharge time of I think about fifteen, maybe 20 seconds, and I also think it should have to interrupt a spell.

See above in reference to the re-use time. If you really want to gripe about something, look at a different eliete that always applies dazed, for longer, if the target has exhaustion. Essentially thats like making an eliete that states "monk is useless", but for elementalists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Otherwise it's a simple, spammable daze that will tear apart most any caster with ease, unless they brought blind. And even if they did, it would take all their time just to keep the damn assassin blinded since he can spam the skill so easily around the battlefield.

Blind, blurred vision, sympathetic visage, spirit shackles, any snare, ward against melee, CoP, most energy denial, ageis, guardian, weapon guard, spiteful spirit, empathy, i could keep going but if you havent figured it out yet they are rather easy to stop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Other than temple strike the assassins are decently balanced I think, I only note that one skill as being overpowered thus far.

Other than temple strike there are only 1 or 2 even noteworthy skills. Most of it is rather trashy, unless you like knockdown skills that only work if no one else is around, or posioning skills that only work if they are knocked down, or a hamstring equivilant skill that only works if the target is hexed and so on. I think the biggest joke of the lot is the wild blow that must be the second attack in the line, cycles faster than any lead attack, doesnt auto crit, doesnt auto hit, and uses the same energy cost. There are a few other skills that are interesting with other profession primaries though, but nothing too special. Return for a monk or other backline character is one such example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivore

well i do sometimes play the a heal monk over a boon prot just because i don't have ot deal with boon sapping energy.

CoP is overated. its an energy hog and is still a situational skill. i prefer setting up Holy Veil before the fight(and i can remove hexes on the team) but i know your talkin about CoP as a condition remover and in that respect its even more situational.

and i dont have problems with migraine mesmers because i can see it comin. Temple Strike has a unrivaled surprise factor.

its fine if it doesnt get nerfed i guess but if it doesnt its gunna take over CA/TA easily

Actually compared to say healing touch, id say healing touch is over rated but many healing monks take it. Temple strike is a counter to your "healing" monk who is overfocused on hex removal.

PieXags · Jan 23, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

First of all, yes I know there are counters to it. But not half of the ones you listed will stop it effectively enough. Sure if you're set to stop temple strike you can get it, but you shouldn't have to load up on every manner of snare/blind skill just to get the assassin the hell away so he won't use this one skill. I have no problem with eviserate because hell, it's just damage. Damage is just about the easiest thing to overcome in this entire game, for any class. Blindness is really the only skill that will effectively stop it from happening. Snares would, but christ assassins can teleport to you as well.

Also, based on skill description and memory it interrupts if it hits. Not if it hits a spell, the skill description reads "Must follow a lead attack. If this attack hits, target foe is interrupted, Dazed, and Blinded for 1...7 seconds." I don't know about you, but that's pretty damn good. It's hard to get in a 4 line combo sure, but not hard at all to get in two hits.

Also keep in mind of course there's condition removal---but in something like the random arenas, that's not going to happen. Also, one of the most common people it's used on is monks, you can't remove that if you're the one trying to get it off yourself! (Unless of course you bring purge signet, but I rarely ever see that.)

As a whole, when compared to the daze abilities of other classes it's beyond overpowered. It's not hard at all to "spam" the skill, christ I watched multiple times as it was used on me, assassin would switch and use it right again on the next guy. Easy as hell, to no cost at all to the assassin. Could use a longer recharge time or having to interrupt a spell if nothing else.

Rikimaru · Jan 23, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Also keep in mind of course there's condition removal---but in something like the random arenas, that's not going to happen. Also, one of the most common people it's used on is monks, you can't remove that if you're the one trying to get it off yourself! (Unless of course you bring purge signet, but I rarely ever see that.)

Yeah, and mesmers and necros are overpowered too, because in random arenas, no one can heal the hexes/conditions they put on you.

Honestly, a 7 second daze isn't that bad. Did you complain when you were hit by Backfire and couldn't cast anything without taking 100+ damage? Or when a warrior was hit by Spirit Shackles, and became unable to attack without losing all of their energy in 4-5 swings?

Phades · Jan 23, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

First of all, yes I know there are counters to it. But not half of the ones you listed will stop it effectively enough. Sure if you're set to stop temple strike you can get it, but you shouldn't have to load up on every manner of snare/blind skill just to get the assassin the hell away so he won't use this one skill. I have no problem with eviserate because hell, it's just damage. Damage is just about the easiest thing to overcome in this entire game, for any class. Blindness is really the only skill that will effectively stop it from happening. Snares would, but christ assassins can teleport to you as well.

Good, soft target far away from healers and is snared. You back up and he dies. I did this rinse and repeate for 2 days now with zero healing on a elementalist and a mesmer. It always took 2-3 assasins to kill me or 1 assasin + another profession with the other profession doing the majority of the damage. Even then i always took at least 1 assasin with me. As a monk, i just had to laugh becuase the damage is so pituful that even through the dazed state they could not kill me. The skill is not overpowered for the weapon it is delivered with. If you were to compare it to a ranger or a warrior who is doing over twice the damage per hit, then yeah the parity goes out the window especially since rangers and warriors attack faster with IAS than assasins do without. It is also somewhat akward to fit a re-useable IAS into an assasin primary. Put frenzy into the bar and well, you go squish rather fast. Flurry just drains the energy more and makes you do less damage. If your team had a rit with union, well lets just say you wont even feel an assassin beyond some conditions. Considering you cant keep the dazed on permenantly, i do not understand your argument at all. It would be akin to saying blackout is overpowered. I think you need to take a slightly wider perspective on the situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Also, based on skill description and memory it interrupts if it hits. Not if it hits a spell, the skill description reads "Must follow a lead attack. If this attack hits, target foe is interrupted, Dazed, and Blinded for 1...7 seconds." I don't know about you, but that's pretty damn good. It's hard to get in a 4 line combo sure, but not hard at all to get in two hits.

It must follow a lead, so its the second attack obviously and there really isnt much you would want to follow it with. If they are dazed and you can hit them, there is not much point in knocking them down then posioning them. You could do twisting fangs for bleeding and deep wound, but that is 22 energy spent in 3 attacks as a assasin primary assuming a zealous upgrade. That is not something that is going to be repeated often. As a ranger primary, its a whole different ball game though, which is why the skills needed to not be energy based anyway, but that is a different subject.

In practice the skill wont interupt things like say those 5s spirit casting times. We can also talk about power block blacking out all skills of the type and not just spells, while also the blackout not being dependant on the skill actually interupting something. That is just skill descriptions for you though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Also keep in mind of course there's condition removal---but in something like the random arenas, that's not going to happen. Also, one of the most common people it's used on is monks, you can't remove that if you're the one trying to get it off yourself! (Unless of course you bring purge signet, but I rarely ever see that.)

CoP is the bane of everyone's existance. If you are a monk and go into 4v4, i dont think that there is an excuse to not bring it. If not, have fun against the blackout version of this skill that is a hex and is not based off of combo attacks, while being in the same skill denomination as expunge enchantments. With the hex version the assasin can also easily deliver the crippled condition and not be required to be a ranger primary to make it work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

As a whole, when compared to the daze abilities of other classes it's beyond overpowered. It's not hard at all to "spam" the skill, christ I watched multiple times as it was used on me, assassin would switch and use it right again on the next guy. Easy as hell, to no cost at all to the assassin. Could use a longer recharge time or having to interrupt a spell if nothing else.

Considering that other professions hit alot harder than the assasin, you cant compare it. Considering things like blackout or gale cycles is a total shutdown and allows for damage, there is no argument to something removable like this and has no bonus damage while being on an energy hungry class that will lose a fight to a wand user without using a combo chain. It also does have a cost and it is substantial. If the assasin is doing anything other than just lead hit-> temple strike, then they will run out of energy. Now if you say assasin and mean R/A, then id say that its a skill that should not be allowed for a ranger to use.

Mysterial · Jan 23, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

As a whole, when compared to the daze abilities of other classes it's beyond overpowered.

No, the other dazed options are underpowered, and I hope Temple Strike is an indication that they're getting a buff. Nobody takes Concussion Shot, not even in Random Arenas, because you can do so much better for less energy to just spam Savage/Punishing/Distracting. And Skull Crack would be bad if it did Eviscerate level bonus damage, let alone the way it is now.

beginners_luck · Jan 23, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Assassins like piling on conidtions incredibly fast. Therefore, Melandru's Resilience just got useful again. At the very least, it'll let you survive Temple Strike plus whatever else long enough to pound that assassin into the dirt.

Mysterial · Jan 23, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

It must follow a lead, so its the second attack obviously and there really isnt much you would want to follow it with. If they are dazed and you can hit them, there is not much point in knocking them down then posioning them. You could do twisting fangs for bleeding and deep wound, but that is 22 energy spent in 3 attacks as a assasin primary assuming a zealous upgrade. That is not something that is going to be repeated often. As a ranger primary, its a whole different ball game though, which is why the skills needed to not be energy based anyway, but that is a different subject.

You're underrating Assassin energy management but that's understandable considering it's so random. Basing how much energy you have available on the random number generator is a very bad idea, IMO. You can do an Assassin run on a target twice and have a vastly different energy situation depending on how many criticals you get. It's a serious wild card and as you hinted, I expect that if it remains unchanged, E/A and R/A are going to be much more popular due to the more consistent energy they provide.

Regarding Expertise, the answer to that isn't to have Assassin skills use other mechanics, it's to balance Expertise.

Phades · Jan 23, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

You're underrating Assassin energy management but that's understandable considering it's so random. Basing how much energy you have available on the random number generator is a very bad idea, IMO. You can do an Assassin run on a target twice and have a vastly different energy situation depending on how many criticals you get. It's a serious wild card and as you hinted, I expect that if it remains unchanged, E/A and R/A are going to be much more popular due to the more consistent energy they provide.

Regarding Expertise, the answer to that isn't to have Assassin skills use other mechanics, it's to balance Expertise.

The way it seems with the "bonus" energy managment, is that whenever you crit as a result of the extra % from the primary trait, then you get +2 energy. Getting +2 energy roughly 11% of the time is not what id bet money on. That is like trying to count on a ranger hitting through blind in order to interupt someone using res sig every time. Its just not going to happen regularly enough to really give it cause for realistic use considerations. I even tried using critical eye with it at high critcal hits skill and still came up dry over time, which would result in +3e per critical hit.

I seriously do not see E/A doing the combination for dagger skills. Even so, the only difference is that the ele can do combos longer, only to wait longer before being able to use them again in a long set of repeated chains. Rangers with a zealous mod on the other hand can use the skills indefinatly for all intensive purposes.

If you rebalance expertise, then you have to rebalance all of their skills as well, which would just make the ranger skills more usable and the net change would still be low if it still had any reduction to non-ranger skills at all, due to the existance of the zealous mod amplifying the regen rate making the actual cost almost null for most skills used.

Fluffyx · Jan 23, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Assassins skills all need energy, while a warrior can use adrenaline or energy based attack skills. You can easily get rid of blind and you can easily hit an evading enemy as a warrior. And mobeus strike(sp) is pretty much a useless elite it may sound good. But the sad thing is even with the energy you get from crits you wont be able to pull off another long combo. They have the same armor as rangers and less damage on their weapons. They arent overpowered in my opinion, same as any other random pvp game there is no dominating team theres always someone out there that can rape you. The only skill i'm thinking thats overpowered is the enchantment stripping one, you could run through the entire team stripping any enchants, ouch. :[

Phades · Jan 23, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffyx

Assassins skills all need energy, while a warrior can use adrenaline or energy based attack skills. You can easily get rid of blind and you can easily hit an evading enemy as a warrior. And mobeus strike(sp) is pretty much a useless elite it may sound good. But the sad thing is even with the energy you get from crits you wont be able to pull off another long combo. They have the same armor as rangers and less damage on their weapons. They arent overpowered in my opinion, same as any other random pvp game there is no dominating team theres always someone out there that can rape you. The only skill i'm thinking thats overpowered is the enchantment stripping one, you could run through the entire team stripping any enchants, ouch. :[

Expunge enchantments is definatly usable. The blackout time on the skill bar is minimal, so it isnt crippling to the user. Considering the nature of many enchantments, the enchantments will be refreshed faster than expunge will be. That being said, i think it is a good skill all things considered and is a real alternative to removing enchantment stacks compared to rend enchantments. I also think the ritualist spirit that removes enchantments has potential too, but i havent played with it myself yet.

Chicken Rice Seller · Jan 23, 2006, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Trapper pwn Assasin anyday ...
they just rush in and starting hacking @ u right away but ...BOOM ! bleed,knock down,set on fire and blind ...look @ them running away lol

Hyunsai · Jan 23, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Well well, I tested too the temple elite of assassin, and honestly, it's cool, but well, not overpowered at all... Even with maxed signet of shadow after, even with lot of things I tested, even with Ranger/assassin... My Ranger/Warrior Hammer is doing much more damage, and is more flexible...

This week end, I found assassin all but overpowered...

animeba · Jan 23, 2006, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Here is the combo I run in CA.
Expose Defenses --> Dash --> Black Mantis Strike --> Temple Strike --> Twisting Fangs

Energy: 10+5+5+10+10 = 40 total
Conditions: Cripple -> Interrupt + Blind + Daze -> Bleed + Deep Would

Needless to say, monks loved me.

In my opinion, temple strike is waaaay underpowered. Why do i even have to combo 4 skills to kill a monk, should be made into a one hit - one kill skill

Solais · Jan 23, 2006, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

You're underrating Assassin energy management but that's understandable considering it's so random. Basing how much energy you have available on the random number generator is a very bad idea, IMO. You can do an Assassin run on a target twice and have a vastly different energy situation depending on how many criticals you get. It's a serious wild card and as you hinted, I expect that if it remains unchanged, E/A and R/A are going to be much more popular due to the more consistent energy they provide.

Regarding Expertise, the answer to that isn't to have Assassin skills use other mechanics, it's to balance Expertise.

I can understand not wanting to warrant the energy given from critical hits, but if you give an assassin a pair of zealous daggers... well they've still got 3 arrows of energy regen to go along with the zealous effect. Even if you're not hitting all the time, any 5 energy skills that hit gives you back a 20% return... with a 60% return on crits (my chain was based mostly on 5 energy cost skills). Once I realized this I ran zealous all day and energy was never a problem.

I also did enjoy how I could run down to kill the NPC revive priest in less than 10 seconds with one full chain, then come back to finish up the battle.

Reks · Jan 23, 2006, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Energy was never really a problem with a Zealous upgrade. Heck, I even used Tiger's Fury to gain back my energy before I readied my next assault.

And if everyone's crying for nerf on Temple Strike... I may have to agree somewhat. If it hits... any caster is in a world of hurt. But there's so many ways to prevent it it's not even worth it. One of the arguments against is that it can be applied on very quickly. Well, one option to make it "fair" would be to make it into a Dual attack. Then they'll be no excuse not to avoid it. It's probably why Twisted Fangs hasn't been called on for nerfage. Because ZOMG that's like Sever Artery + Gash in one skill!

[/sarcasm]

satchef1 · Jan 23, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

i think they are a little overpowered, best way to kill an assasin seems to be to trap them (i.e. get them to chase someone whilst a team member who has traps lays a load of them down on a choke point like a bridge or something). this gets the assasin nearly every time because theyre so damn fast that they just run straight through the traps, becoming crippled, blinded, burned, wounded etc and pretty much die within seconds (espec when you add poison into the mix).

took a whole team of A/?s out doing that, had 2 ele's casting area spells onto the choke point aswell as the traps from 3 trappers and 2 warriors melleeing them but its still a bit of an extreme method to have to take, and if any of them saw the trap then they could have just teleported past it (another assasin skill that i hated, teleporting in and out of the fight was a pain)

tafy69 · Jan 23, 2006, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Assasins overpowered? are u kidding me?

I thought they were underpowered

Makkert · Jan 23, 2006, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Assassins overpowered? Not sure. They have certainly potential, and are a force to be reckoned with.

Here my story. PvP event starts, not many guildies online so I can't really tombs. I decide to boon-prot some faction in RA.
I get served hard in my very first battle. Hard. I retry another RA match, same pattern.
My face:

Initial response: 'monking just lost its fun...those spikes were sick'
I am not the greatest player around, but know when something is not 'normal'. Usually I do a better job at monking then what happend at those matches.
I tab while lying dead through my opponents again: A/N...Mo/N.....N/W...Ele/A

Quickly I pick up the premade to see what this is all about. After playing the premades, I understand what is happening, and log back on my prot-boon.

I start to pre-kite more actively, especially when i know an E/A is on the team. Now knowing that Assassins are able to 'melee-spike', I start to run and slip quick RoF's to stay alive and try to slip in Guardians when able to break their combo's.
I get hit with Temple Strike (didn't knew the skill when it hit me, just saw the conditions suddenly popping up to my suprise). I'm not sure wether it was the player or the skill, but I realise the daze means two options:
1) run till daze wears off. this suprisingly only lasted a few seconds...
2) slip a quick RoF (0.5 casting under daze)

I choose the first usually, because the consequences of being interrupted can be nasty. It worked out well, the sting was taken out of the premades...

In short: predict what you'll face, and you'll know what to do.

Later that day I also made fun of assassins with a build much like Mavis's one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavis

Enfeeble
Spiteful Spirit
Insidious Parasite
Empathy
Spirit Shackles
Blackout
Blood Ritual
Res Signet

This neutered the assassin. Not only that, but the Assassin on MY team thanked me for spreading the hexes. He had an easier time to combo...

I won't say the Assassin isn't overpowered. I think its to early to make any call at it. People don't know how to play the class, and people don't know how to counter it.

Especially the 'people don't know how to counter it' was very obvious.
I tried the Rit/Mo premade. I was STUNNED how little harrassment I got.
For many games, my spirits were left unchecked. I was not attacked. Quite a change from playing a Mo/X, where one gets all aggro. You furfill the same role in the team (healing), but suddenly you are not attacked?

b.allbright · Jan 23, 2006, 11:28 AM // 11:28

The assasins were, if anything underpowered. The only skill they had that remotely affected me was the aforementioned temple strike. Since temple strike's effects are conditions I just plague touched most of them right back to the source, a tactic that worked extremly well with most of the novice assasins this weekend. I accrued enough faction off of the assasins in CA to unlock every non-elite ritualist skill, which is a profession i see much more potential with (think r/rt trapper).

I lost only once to an assasin in 1v1 combat all weekend, and for the life of me i wish i knew how to translate Korean to tell you who it was, the player was quite skilled. With my n/me i was able to take two assasins at once most of the time as well.